How to get information about the reformed?

[Kastor]

Hello,

I am not dutch, I live in scandinavia. I just can't find any calvinists (or reformed) or any churches here. But I have been thinking I'm more calvinist than lutheran. How can I get more information and answers to all the things I am wondering about?

Thank you.

[Wybo]

Alleen engels in dit topic AUB

[elle]

O dear...
I'd say: read some books .

Most Dutch people (I, for example), don't know much about the Lutherian church. It's something German, hardly exists in the Netherlands. And a large portion of the Dutch Lutherian (Evangelical) chuch just has united with 2 other big churches to form the 'Proterstantse Kerk Nederland'.
But this I found on the internet Reformed Theology - what is it?:

quote:

Historically, the Five Points of Calvinism have been held by the Presbyterian and Reformed churches and by many Baptists, while the substance of the Five Points of Arminianism has been held by the Methodist and Lutheran churches and also by many Baptists.

Don't know if that's just one of the differences.
The Calvinist 5 Points they're talking about are:
# Sola Scriptura: The Scripture Alone is the Standard
# Soli Deo Gloria! For the Glory of God Alone
# Solo Christo! By Christ's Work Alone are We Saved
# Sola Gratia: Salvation by Grace Alone
# Sola Fide: Justification by Faith Alone

The Arminian 5 Points are:
#Election Based on (fore)knowledge- God elected those whom He knew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faith
#Unlimited Atonement- In His atonement, Christ provided redemption for all mankind, making all mankind savable. Christ's atonement becomes effective only in those who believe
#Natural Ability- Man cannot save himself; the Holy Spirit must effect the new birth
#Prevenient Grace- Preparatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the gospel and cooperate with God in salvation
#Conditional Perseverance- Believers have been empowered to live a victorious life, but they are capable of turning from grace and losing their salvation

Some more urls: arminianism, Arminianism vs. Calvinism. I'm learning here something too .

A Dutch guy moved to Norway (Oslo), this spring. He encountered the same problem, and maybe he's found a solution. You might contact him. He talks about this in this topic: kerk in Noorwegen, and his mailadress might still be valid.

[Kastor]

Thank you for the information, elle!

But I became even more confused now. Because what appeals to me is the pre-destination. But this arminian then..? I have never even heard about arminianism.. starting to think I must be a crazy cultist.

[elle]

Ah...
You lack a decent introduction to the theological history.

Thats difficult stuff, and I do not understand half of it. The fine details are wasted on me, I'm afraid.
The discussion about pre-destination dates back to the late 16th century. Arminius was a dutch protestant reverent back then. Plancius and Gomarus, other dutch reverents, were opposing him.
Finally, in 1618, a synode was called together: an assembly of wise reformed theologists. They decided the thing in favor of Gomarus. Arminius and followers left the reformed church and became what is called 'the remonstrants'.
The synode resulted in the 'Dortse Leerregels', a dutch confession, which is still held high by several reformed denominations in the Netherlands. The GKv is one of them, allthough common GKv members hardly know the contents of it. There is probably an english translation somewhere.

Qohelet, another forum-participant, is much more at home in this matter than I am.

[Qohelet]

Hi Kastor,

I will try to give you a short introduction in the Arminian controversy, for it has indeed defined much of the Reformed identity.

After the Protestant Reformation, there were several groups who left the Roman Catholic Church because the became more "evangelical" (a term coined in that time, to indicate that they wanted to obey the Gospel, not the Church). They were the Lutherans, Calvinists and Baptists. In my (Calvinist) opinion, the Lutherans too quickly compromised with the Catholics in several areas, such as the mass liturgy; and the Baptists were too radical in many instances.

The Calvinists were quite influential in North-West Europe, especially the Netherlands. During the war between the Spanish and the Dutch (1568-1648) the distinction Catholic-Protestant became a matter of national politics. The Dutch government sided with the Calvinist Protestants, and the Reformed Church became a state church.

As always in those situations -- I suppose that one could also recognize this in the Lutheran history in Norway, Sweden and Iceland -- people became members of the church for unsound reasons. Everybody in Holland was supposed to belong to the Reformed Church. If you wanted an important position in society, you'd better be Reformed.

The Humanist movement was very influential among intellectuals in that time. It is not strange, therefore, that some scholars wanted to think among humanist lines, without giving up their Reformed identity. This led to a fierce dispute. The main figure was the young Amsterdam minister, who subtly introduces humanist thinking in his theology: Arminius. In Amsterdam he was opposed by Petrus Plancius, and later when he became a professor in Leiden, he was challenged by his colleague Fransiscus Gomarus.

When the controversy grew, the Dutch church (and government) organized a meeting to discuss the issue. This was the Intenational Synod of Dort (or Dordrecht) in 1618/1619. (International, because representatives from all Calvinist countries were there.) The followers of Arminius ("Arminians") had filed a document in which they explained there point of few. This document was called "Remonstrantie", and for that reason the Arminians are also called "Remonstrants". Until today, there are Remonstrant Churches in the Netherlands and in North-America.

The "Remonstrantie" was rejected by the Synod of Dort. The Arminians were dismissed halfway during the proceedings. A document was drafted in which the Arminian thinking was exposed as heresy. This document, the "Dordtse Leerregels" (English: "Canons of Dort") became a creed of all Reformed Churches.

[Qohelet]

The issues the Synod of Dort dealt with in 1618/19 were already listed by Elle. The Reformed response to them can be summarized as "the Five Points of Calvinism". English-speaking Reformeds (and Presbyterians, for that matter) usually remember them from the acronym TULIP:

Total Depravity
We believe that man by nature, apart from the grace of God, is dead in sin, and in no way able to make up for his sin and unfaithfulness against God. In short, we are miserable sinners, even our will is enslaved to sin, and our best works fall short of the just standards of our holy God.

Unconditional Election
God has given Jesus Christ as the atonment for sin; all who believe in Him are saved. Now ultimately, this saving faith does not come from man himself. Indeed, when "natural" man is presented the gospel, he will reject it and despise the sacrifice of God's only Son. Faith itself is a gift from God; the willingness to believe is due to the work of regeneration, by which God changes our heart and turns our will his direction.
God does not regenerate all men, not even all people who are raised in a Christian family. He chooses whom he saves. This is the profound Biblical truth of "election". The Arminians argued that God's election is really based on his advance knowledge about who will want to believe and who will not. The Reformed, however, hold fast to the truth that God's election is not based on anything in us, but only on his good pleasure. There are no conditions that we must fulfill to be elected.

Limited Atonement
This is the teaching that the atoning work of Christ extends to the elect (= those who believe or will believe) only. Only the people chosen by God partake in the salvation. This is completely according to God's plan and purpose.

Irresistible Grace
The doctrine of irresistible grace is probably the most disputed issue between Reformed believers and virtually all others. We believe that God's gracious work of regeneration (which he only works in the elect) is not dependent of man or the choice of man. When God comes to man and works in his heart, he will not ask permission (after all, we would say "no"). God's grace is all-powerful, and when he touches our hearts we will certainly turn to Him and believe Him. (The Arminians taught, that somehow man must "invite" or "accept" the regenerating Spirit of God in their hearts. This thought is also common among evangelicals. It presents, however, a far too positive view of the capabilities of man.)

Preservation (or Perseverance) of the Saints
This Biblical doctrine is the conforting truth that God, who began a good work in us (= his elect), will also complete it. When God has chosen for someone, nothing can separate that person from his love. God can and will provide everything to keep the true believer close to him. The concrete message is, that we need not fear to fall away from God's grace; he does not tempt us beyond our capacities, he will give strength and grace where necessary. Even if we fall in sin, God is faithful.

Many more can be said about these issues. Different Reformed denominations often disagree about the fine details of these teachings. In some churches, the rich content of this Calvinistic point of view have been watered down; others make a charicature of it ("Hyper-Calvinism"). But these are the mainlines. If you want to know the historical context, try to find a copy of the Canons of Dort. There are several online versions; try, for example, www.prca.com or www.crc.com.

[Qohelet]

By the way, Kastor, where in Scandinavia do you live? I am intereseted to learn more about the churches there "i Norden".

Hvis du vil, vi kan også brevveksle per e-mail; da kan jeg den nordiske sprogene øve.
Hvis du vil, vi kan også brevveksle per e-mail; da kan jeg den nordiske språkene øve.
Om du vill, vi kan också brevväxle per e-mail; då kan jag den nordiska språken öva.
Ef þú vilt, við getum líka skrifað í e-mail; þá get ég æfað hin norrænu tungumál.

[parepidemos]

quote:

Kastor schreef op 24 september 2004 om 03:08:
Hello,

I am not dutch, I live in scandinavia. I just can't find any calvinists (or reformed) or any churches here. But I have been thinking I'm more calvinist than lutheran. How can I get more information and answers to all the things I am wondering about?

Thank you.

Hi Kastor,

There are a lot of internet site about calvinist (or reformed) churches. I often use this as a starting point: www.spindleworks.com. This site based in Canada, but you will find links to a lot of US churches also.

But of course welcome on this Dutch forum.

[Marnix]

Hey Kastor,

You might have read some unknown names in this topic. Because this is a dutch forum, people also tell things from the dutch history of reformed churches. Names like Arminius, Gomarus etc. are well-known by dutch reformed christian but unknown to most people in other countries

I found another site that might be interesting for you: www.reformed-online.net
There's some interesting information on this site about reformed christians (also about reformed churches in other countries)

If you have questions about reformed dogma's, feel free to ask them here!

Good luck with your search!

[elle]

Which is not entierly true, Marnix...
Don't forget that Europe was dominated by the Catholic Spanish back then, and that the seven provinces (the Netherlands) and Germany (or whatever it was called) were the few reformed countries then.
And since 'we' persecuted the Arminians, aka the remonstrants, their theology is rather wide-spread. Many denominations in America are based on this Arminianism.
Now, 350 years later, their teaching comes back to the Netherlands, in the form of 'evangelism'. Especially the old 'prevenient grace (A)' vs 'Iresistible grace (C)' is nowadays debated between the churches, and even on this bulletinboard its a matter in quite a lot of topics.

Ps: Kastor, I don't consider you a 'crazy cultist', don't even quite know what you mean by that.
To some extent it's true what Marnix tells you. But although Arminius and Gomarus were dutch, the debate was followed by the whole of reformed Europe. I guess that the Lutherans chose the side of the Arminians, but I can't tell you why or how or when.
The predestination matter is just a very old matter, and neither side can convince the other.
I myself think that the bible gives quite a lot of evidence that all who are chosen by God, will become believers and will thus be redeemed. Which is the Calvinistic side. But as soon as we start debating this, it will become difficult: we also are allowed to pray, and the prayer of believers is very powerfull.

[Scholasticus]

@Kastor: I know of some Reformed people in Sweden who make plans to start independent congregations. Perhaps you would be pleased to contact them. Here I have the email-address of one of them, dr. Sebastian Rehnman. He is a lecturer of philosophy of religion, and a convinced Calvinist: sebastian.rehnman@efs.svenskakyrkan.se
I hope this will help you to find your way!

@elle: the Lutherans did not actually choose the side of the Arminians, but they had their own problems with the Calvinist doctrine of election already in the 16th century. The standard Lutheran doctrine is that God elects those of which He foresees that they will believe.

[Roodkapje]

Also a good help to find some theological know-how:
Alister E. McGrath - Theology: An Introduction click here for more details

There are also some reformed baptists (like me) to make things even more complicated: http://www.vor.org/truth/refbapt.html

[Marnix]

Lol, I think it will be even more confusing for Kastor now....

There's much difference between "evangelism" and "arminianism" Elle, you can't just say that evangelic churches decends from the arminianism. They have more in common with the anabaptism, however there are also differences there.

Don't make it all harder to understand with false information.