De voorwaarde, een stelling

[Carl]

Jesus is gestorven voor onze zonden.
Op grond daarvan vergeeft God onze zonden.

Period.

Of we het nu geloven of niet: Gods vergeving is soeverein en onafhankelijk. Ieders zonden zijn vergeven op basis van Jesus' dood. Niet op basis van iemands geloof.

jullie
Carl

[Pulpeet]

Je kent zelf de bijbelteksten die hier zometeen neergezet gaan worden om het tegendeel te bewijzen. Ik stel dus voor dat we die stap gelijk maar overslaan en dat we verder gaan met jouw verdediging van de stelling. Scheelt weer wat werk (en wellicht ook wat frustratie).

Waarom is jouw stelling waar?

[Carl]

Beste Pulpeet,

ik zou niet weten hoe ik het verder zou moeten verdedigen. op grond van wat ik er weet  lijkt mij niet het geloof doorslaggevend, maar de kruisdood.

En ergens staat er geloof ik ook nog, dat het niet de mens is die naar God moet toekomen dmv geloof, maar dat het God is die de mens opzoekt door die daad.

Tenslotte: als iets van ons geloof af zou moeten hangen, dan zou de "verlossing" wel erg onvolkomen zijn.

je
Carl

[Mezzamorpheus]

In 'Anathema' postte ik dit, maar daar werd er niet op gereageerd. Misschien is het hier wat meer op zijn plek:

Carl (en andere belangstellenden natuurlijk), hier twee stukken van de site ACTSweb over de persoon Jezus en de komende twee dagen volgen nog twee stukken. Ik kan het niet beter beschrijven, daarom neem ik het maar over. Als dit niet mag hoor ik het wel.

----------------

[1] I AM THE WAY

"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me'" (John 14:6,
NIV).

Stanley Jones tells of a missionary who got lost in an
African jungle, nothing around him but bush and a few
cleared places. He found a native hut and asked the native
if he could get him out. The native said he could.

"All right," said the missionary, "show me the way."

The native said, "Walk," so they walked and hacked their
way through unmarked jungle for more than an hour.

The missionary got worried. "Are you quite sure this is the
way? Where is the path?"

The native said, "Bwana, in this place there is no path. I
am the path."1

When it comes to finding the way to God, there are numerous
religions in the world today all claiming to have a corner
on the truth and to be "the path" to God.

There are also vast numbers of people who believe that the
way to God and the path to Heaven is through good works. Or
at least, they reason (as I did in youthful days), "If I do
more good things than I do bad things, my good deeds will
outweigh my bad deeds, and that will get me into Heaven."
According to God's Word, the Bible, this belief is also
doomed for failure: "For by grace you have been saved
through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift
of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."2

Then there is a Christianity that also makes the claim that
it has the ONLY way to God's and Heaven. As God's Word
says, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no
other name [other than Jesus Christ] under heaven given
among men by which we must be saved."3

The question we need to ask is this: "Is Jesus Christ the
Son of God and the Savior of the World?" If he is and his
word is truth, then he is the only way to God and to
Heaven. If he is not the Son of God, then he is not a good
man nor a great religious leader. He would be a liar, an
imposter, and guilty of leading multiplied millions astray.

But how can we know if Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the
Living God, or not?

We will answer this question in the next three days' Daily
Encounters.

Suggested prayer: "Dear God, in all the many voices
claiming to have the way to you and that of eternal
salvation, help me to know the truth so I can be absolutely
certain that I am on the 'Truth Way' and on my way Heaven
when I die. Thank you for hearing and answering my prayer.
In Jesus' name. Amen."

[Mezzamorpheus]

----------

[1] IS JESUS THE SON OF GOD? Part I

Jesus said, "I and the Father [God] are one" (John 10:30,
NIV).

Almost 2,000 years ago when Caesar Augustus was ruling the
vast Roman Empire, Jesus Christ was born in Palestine in
very humble circumstances. Until he was 30 he was virtually
unknown.

However, during a brief three-year public ministry, his
impact was such that it changed the world--including the
change of our calendar from B.C. to A.D.

H.G. Wells, the famous historian, once said about Christ:
"I am not a believer. But I must confess, as an historian,
this penniless creature from Galilee is irresistibly the
center of history."

No other person ever made the stupendous claims that Jesus
did. He claimed to be the Son of God, the promised Jewish
Messiah, and the only way to God for all mankind. He
claimed to have power to forgive sins and to give people
eternal life. Above all, he claimed to be God, saying, "I
and the Father [God] are one."1

Socrates once said, "Oh, that someone would arise, man or
God, to show us God." Four hundred years later Christ came
and claimed to be that person.

But was Jesus Christ the Son of God? If not, he would have
been the greatest impostor who ever lived!

Lew Wallace, a distinguished general and literary genius,
and Robert Ingersoll, a notable skeptic, agreed to write a
book that would prove Christianity to be a myth.

After two years of research, however, in some of the
leading libraries of Europe and America in preparation for
writing this book, Mr. Wallace had a transformation of
attitude. He was only up to the second chapter when he fell
to his knees and prayed, "My Lord and my God."

After studying the evidence, Wallace became convinced of
the deity of Jesus Christ. He then wrote Ben Hur, one of
the greatest novels ever written about the times of Christ.
Later, Robert Ingersoll had this to say: "In using my
speeches do not use any assault I may have made on Christ,
which I foolishly made in my early life."

Suggested prayer: "Dear God, please reveal to me the truth
about Jesus Christ so that I can know without any shadow of
a doubt whether he is your Son and the Savior of the world
or not. And please show me the way to you. Thank you for
hearing and answering my prayer. Gratefully, in Jesus'
name, amen."

1. John 10:30, (NIV).

[Mezzamorpheus]

[1] IS JESUS THE SON OF GOD?  Part II

"From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples
that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the
hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law,
and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised
to life" (Matthew 16:21, NIV).

A similar thing happened to one of today's leading
Christian authors and spokesmen, Josh McDowell. His
outstanding book that supports Christianity, Evidence That
Demands a Verdict, began as his attempt to deny
Christianity.

Jesus Christ, however, is not the only religious leader who
claimed to be God, but he is the only one who ever
convinced a great portion of the world that he is. He is
also the only leader who ever claimed that he would rise
from death.2

According to historical evidence, he did. He was seen by
the women who visited his tomb and found it empty, by the
disciples, and by more than 500 other witnesses.3

Christ's resurrection was also recorded by Josephus, the
Jewish historian, in his Antiquities. Josephus was a Jew
writing to satisfy the Romans, so his report of Christ's
resurrection wouldn't have pleased the Romans at all. He
would not have included it had he not believed it to be
true.

Further evidence to support the deity of Christ is seen in
the more than 300 prophecies concerning him and his life
that are found in the Bible and were written centuries
before his birth.

For instance, 700 years before Christ was born in
Bethlehem, Micah wrote, "But you, Bethlehem...though you
are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come
for me one who will be ruler over Israel."4

A thousand years before Christ's death David predicted how
he would die. "They have pierced my hands and my feet," he
wrote.5 This happened at Christ's crucifixion.

This is even more remarkable when considering that in
David's time, death by crucifixion was unknown. This
inhuman, torturous death was first used by the Persians
centuries later.

David also predicted that Christ would be betrayed by a
friend, that people would "throw dice" for his clothes, and
that he would die with criminals.6 He also predicted the
dying Savior's cry: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken
me?"7 All of these predictions came true.

Suggested prayer: "Dear God, thank you for all the
prophecies in the Bible that pointed to the promised
Messiah (Savior). Please give me the assurance in my heart
and mind whether or not these apply to Jesus Christ. Thank
you for hearing and answering my prayer. Gratefully, in
Jesus' name, amen."

To be continued ...

[Mart]

de eerste bijbeltekst die je zou kunnen geven is die van: want alzo lief heeft God de wereld gehad......... opdat een ieder die in Hem gelooft niet verloren ga...........

Maar goed, dat geven van bijbelteksten lijkt me een beetje zinloos, want die gelooft carl toch niet.

Wat je wel kunt doen is de lijn doortrekken, terug in de geschiedenis. ALs je Jezus offer als beeld gaat zien van de vervulling van alle offergaven, die het volk Israel moest geven in de tempel. (zodat wij niet meer hoeven offeren)

Het was zo dat de offers die de israelieten moesten brengen persoonlijke offers waren. Iedereen moest die doen, want iedereen had persoonlijk een schuld tegenover God als hij of zij zonde had gedaan. Door het offer werd de schuld voldaan. Ook werden er offers gebracht voor het gehele volk, als heel het volk samen had gezondigd. Die offers waren echter alleen voor het volk van God. De heidenen hadden er niets mee te maken.

Nu wij ook onder Gods volk vallen, (de heidenen nog steeds niet) geldt dat wij de schuld die we als mensen samen en ieder persoonlijk tegenover God hebben, moeten voldoen. Dat moeten we ieder persoonlijk doen. Hier zijn we echter niet toe in staat. (zie heidelbergse catechismus zondag 5) Persoonlijk niet en collectief niet.

Een offer moet gebracht worden. Persoonlijk. Dat ligt geheel in de lijn met het oude testament, en staat ook in het NT.
Het offer van Jezus geldt dus (net als de offers in het OT) alleen voor die personen die dat offer 'brengen' voor Gods aangezicht. Die dus in dat offer geloven, die geloven dat enkel en alleen door dat offer zij weer rein voor God kunnen staan.
Dus geloven dat het offer van Jezus zomaar zonder voorwaarden voor iedereen is, is niet in de lijn van de Bijbel, Gods Woord.

[Pulpeet]

Er is trouwens al een topic over Alverzoening: Alverzoening

Daar mag de discussie verder gaan.